“Hold on, you gotta see this,” Philly-born, Los Angeles-based singer Orion Sun tells me. We had been chatting for a long while over Zoom about life, music and weed, and I was politely moving our conversation to a close before she jetted away to grab something. She wanted to show me the artwork for her forthcoming self-titled album, Orion, a hand-painted portrait of her head, colorfully rendered, floating in the water, with a small city landscape jutting out of her scalp and hair. She pointed out its intricate details: the city’s buildings are her thoughts, she tells me. The hair encroaching upon it resembles fog. She pauses for a moment to laugh. “I’m just so excited,” she says. She’s giddy like a child showing their teacher a new collage. “I just love analog.”

That earnest embrace of creation — as defined by all of its joys and challenges — could be felt throughout our conversation, which centered on Orion’s next chapter. Since her self-titled debut, 2017’s self-released A Collection of Fleeting Moments and Daydreams, Orion Sun has helped define a strain of genre-fluid indie music that has one foot in the internet and the other in the dusty sunlit interior of a bedroom studio. Marked by a charming DIY quality, there’s a lovable tactility to her music, the strong sense that the singer and producer you’re listening to is giving you something straight from their hands and heart.

That’s all helped Orion maintain an exceptionally close relationship with her many fans around the world and grow a listenership that is uniquely large for an indie artist. Songs like the pleading “Dirty Dancer” off her 2022 EP, Getaway, or the punchy “Antidote” from her debut have streams in the tens of millions. Her tours sell out rapidly. All of these career milestones are flashy and fun, but they’re only important in the sense that they genuinely allow her to sustain a life in the arts, a life that is, miraculously, rarely, dictated on her own terms. “I never want to conform,” she tells PAPER. “I never want to get into a position where I’m making TikTok songs or making stuff that doesn’t serve me first, selfishly.”

Today, she continues on that self-directed path. She’s announcing her headlining US Rising Sun Tour (dates here), which will bring her around the country, and allow her to finally perform an album that she’s been honing for years. Orion, out September 20th on Mom+Pop, is a continuation of all that’s connected fans to her world thus far. But with the benefit of time and space, Orion is a clear expansion, a chance to reflect on this past stretch of her life, which has been marked by a move across the country, a breakup and a dream-like ascent into becoming a globally known musician.

“Mary Jane,” the second single off that album, released today, ruminates on the push and pull between the desire to express oneself and the strain of being watched. An aching rumination on her long-term relationship with marijuana and its attendant feelings of solace and paranoia, “Mary Jane” is an introvert’s ode to the things we do to feel whole and human.

PAPER caught up with the busy musician to talk about nature, this epic album process, and the joys and challenges of touring the world.

Hey! Thanks so much for taking the time. I’m excited to chat.

I’m very hyped for this. I don’t really like talking on social media, so I really value interviews.

To be honest, that’s quite rare with musicians.

Maybe it’s because I’m such a geek about being an artist. Watching other interviews with my favorite artists has become very valuable not only to my artistry but also to how I shape myself as a human. This is such a moment right now: us trying to figure out social media and the internet landscape. It’s kind of similar to the first person ever to try a dragon fruit. They had to have been so brave because it looks so wild when you think about it. “Like, no, you try it first. Are you gonna die?” You know what I mean? There are a lot of things right now, but blogs, PAPER, just the written language … it’s not going anywhere.

You’re right in the thick of it right now because you’re entering album release mode. How are you thinking about that if you have this trepidation with social media?

It just excites me cause I love learning new shit, and I like to grow. I told myself, I could either get left behind or just try to figure it out in my own way. I don’t think getting left behind is bad per se, but with the goals that I have, it’s not really conducive to what I want to accomplish in terms of creating as much shit as possible before I die. So you gotta get up and be like, Okay, this is weird, but how can I do what I wanna do and feel good about it? Hopefully it works.

It’s very much just like, if this works, cool. But I’m more focused on what feels good and what I want to leave behind. I’m the kind of artist who [believes] everything in time. I’m not planning on going anywhere. I want to do this forever. So let me just figure it out and see where I can take it.

It helps that you have fans who are really committed to your work and have been for a while. People have a really deep relationship with your music and have been for years now.

I’m really grateful. As I continue to grow, I’m realizing I’m speaking to myself, but I’m also speaking to who I’m actually connecting with. It really makes me feel good, because I know when I started writing and getting into music, I always felt alone. So whenever I go on tour, or I happen to see a comment or something where it’s just like, “Thank you. I was thinking this too,” it helps me on my worst day. I have it saved in a little mason jar where it’s just like, “Okay. Don’t lose the plot like. This is why I’m here.” It’s very dramatic, but it’s just like, If I’m not doing this, I could not tell you what I’m here for. So that means I gotta roll with the punches. But whenever I do feel that connection it makes it all worth it, you know?

I was suprised that it’s been so long since you put out a full length album, because you’ve been consistently in the mix with your EP and collaborations. What has the process been like of putting together your first full project in a while?

When I put out my first album with a label, Hold Space For Me, there were a lot of “firsts” in that wave of things. It was just so many eyes on me, and that was the turning point for me, because it was just like, “Oh, I’m not putting it on Soundcloud. I’m just giving it to a label.” I had to re-ask myself, like, Okay, do you want to actually do this? Because fame is not something that I got in this for. I actually think that will be one of my biggest battles in terms of it not changing who I am or making me disgusting and weird.

I just want to express myself. There’s something about being able to create songs and then go out and sing those songs. When I hear them back I’m just, Okay, I’m ready to tackle anything, including myself, to make sure that I can do it again. I had a sneak peek of working with other people with my EP, but this album was the first time that I did that with a full-length project. I was meeting so many people, trying to figure out who the right fit may be, finding the right vibe. I’m so sensitive, so it has to be perfect for me. And that just takes time. It was a lot of pushing through doubt. I wanna make good shit. I’m happy with whatever I make. But there is an added pressure that I can’t deny when you get to a certain point in your career where you are thinking, “Where are these things gonna be played? Who’s even listening?”

I was sitting down like, “Okay, all I have to do is show up every day. If I make something cool, cool. If not? Also cool, but at least I showed up.” I was doing that for a couple of years. And I had to sit down too, and be like, Hold on, I can keep making shit forever. I know I have something here. So at the end of last year, I sat down with everything over the course of a couple of years and carved out this story of what I was going through at the time, which was a breakup and finding myself again.

It’s interesting when you break up in your mid-20s. You were dating since you were 21, so there’s a lot of growth that has to happen, because I was just kinda chilling, not experiencing real life in a lot of ways. So it was also dealing with that, and juggling my personal growth with my musical growth. And that’s why I wanted it to call it Orion, because it really feels like my first project. I know who I am more than I ever have before. To the point where I feel like a child. The last time I felt like this, I had to have been like six or seven, just very curious about the world, wanting to try everything. That really is the process. A lot of thinking, a lot of pushing through. And I allowed myself to have a little bit of fun, too. But I did kick myself in the shins, cause I would have been done way earlier.

I’ve only heard the two songs so far, but I’m loving how it still feels connected to your old work, but still definitely like a progression. How are you thinking about shaping the sound of this next chapter?

Going into this, I knew it was important to build upon the world that I already had. I do notice that a lot of artists that are relatively “new” — even though I’ve been doing this for a while — drastically change their sound or direction, kind of like David Bowie, which I love. But I knew that I was in this for a really long time, so I wanted to just kind of stretch that out. My main concern was like, Okay, I want people to know the name. I always joke like I’m on a Key and Peele skit with the substitute teacher, where he’s like, “Hey, A-aaron.” I get people saying my name like “oh-rih-on” and want to make a statement that it’s “oh-rye-on” and just make what feels right.

You were largely in LA while you were making this?

Yeah, I started in New York. “Already Gone” was written in New York, but I was just feeling claustrophobic. I wanted that city to work for me so bad, being from the East Coast and idolizing that city so much. But it just wasn’t conducive to what I needed. I needed to heal. I needed to breathe and grind differently, and New York was just very loud and bustling. I realized I love to visit there, but come home to Los Angeles. And it just felt right. You know, it was really the people. I’m still not used to seeing mountains every day. You are a product of your environment. I really do feel like it’s changed me for the better.

I know that nature was a big part of this album. Did the natural landscape of Los Angeles find its way into the project too?

Nature is definitely a through line in all of my projects, only because I’m very connected. I have to be present to even be tapped into what I’m feeling. It’s almost like magic where I could be having the worst day and go for a walk out here. It’s just different [from New York], too, because you can walk out here and not see anybody. It’s just something about seeing the ultimate creation as a creative.

It gives me inspiration every time, and also grounds me cause I think this is the most pressure I felt with the project because of the long time since the last project. You just never know if people are gonna fuck with you. It only matters to me because I wanna live off of this. I don’t genuinely care if they like the shit. It’s just like: Can I pay my rent? [laughs] I never want to conform. I never want to get into a position where I’m like making TikTok songs or making stuff that doesn’t serve me first, selfishly.

This interview is coming out with “Mary Jane.” And I’m super excited for that song. I’m listening to it at the exact right time, because I used to be a stoner and am thinking a lot about my relationship to marijuana right now. I know it’s also a metaphor, but I’m just curious what you were thinking about when you wrote the song?

I wrote that on tour in 2022, because I had lost my wallet in Toronto, and it really shook me for some reason. I’m just like, I don’t lose that.I don’t really lose things in general, even though everyone was like, “This happens.” But I was just like, We’re on tour. I’m super stressed. It’s my first headline tour, and I lost my wallet. So I was just feeling down, and I was in the band with other stoners too. But all eyes were on me and I was super nervous being on tour. I wasn’t smoking, and I remember looking over, being like, I wish I could [smole] in this moment, because I hate this feeling.

And then I got back from tour, and I was able to sit with it for a little bit. It made me think about my coping mechanisms and just how I get through life. [Weed has] just held me for so long. I remember being really grateful for it, because when I couldn’t talk to anybody, when I didn’t want to talk to anybody, but I knew I had to be here still to see this life through, it got me through. But the more I started having more responsibilities, or just having to socialize more, and not be this hermit that just tinkers away in the studio, it began to betray me, and I was really sad about that, because I was like, Well, what do I do now? I guess I have to talk to my friends about my problems, to step out in the world and be a person, even though it feels safer to just be in my little weed bubble. So when it gets to the bridge of the song, it’s about everything I have to face when I’m not smoking.

So it’s a lot of fear. Even thinking about it moves me, because weed in a lot of ways hyperdrives through that paranoia so I can just get to the other side and be like, I’m exhausted [raises her arms in exasperation and laughs]. It’s that tug and pull, and you’ll see as the album progresses, my relationship with it, because I had to take a break. But when I do take a break: now I have nightmares. It’s just the battle with it being a good thing for me. But I love that song, because it’s like, Please work for me still, because I don’t know how I’m going to navigate this part of my life without it?

You mentioned tour being stressful. This is also gonna come out with the announcement of your next tour. What’s your relationship with tour now? Has it changed?

Thank God for growth, right? I mean, shout out to my fans that continuing to support me, buying my merch, buying these tickets, streaming my music because I’m able to grow my touring team. So my most recent tour was opening for Daniel Caesar and I had tour management. The more you grow, the more you can make it comfortable for yourself by having people looking out for certain things, because things get wild.I’m not the kind of artist that’s like, I don’t want to see my fans. I don’t care if there’s no setup for the meet and greet. If they want to meet me, if they went out of their way to contact my tour manager or one of my bandmates, I’m going to pop out. But that can be dangerous.

And I just don’t want to ever become just a product. I think my fans understand that I’m very human. I post when I wants to, or when something’s coming. I want to be a human first, product, second, like I’m self aware enough to know that I am both things. But on tour, it’s elevated right? They don’t give a shit. If you’re tired, they don’t care if you’re talking to this person. They want a picture. Now, you have to just really learn how to navigate all these different mirrors right?

Like, I don’t see separation between any of us. I look at them, I see myself, and I hope they look at me and see themselves whether they’re black or not, whether they’re a woman or not. I take all of that into consideration, and I think I put that on myself and make touring difficult, because outside of that, it’s really fun.

I see something new almost every day [on tour]. And being the introvert that I am, that’s so important for me. Thank God for my job because I’m still healing from trauma. It’s not really natural for me to be like, “Let me go to Paris today.”

I get to see the world and come back to tell my friends, tell my family, who might be more afraid of the world than I am, you know? and it gives them hope. You’re an inspiration, like, I want to leave my block. I want to leave my hometown. That moves me.

Photography: Eric Johnson

A supernova is a stellar explosion that shakes space so much that it can be detected far away from its location — a solid metaphor for Ralphie Choo‘s first album. SUPERNOVA, released last year, managed to shake up the European music scene. No one could have guessed the phenomenon that this 14-song album was going to be — instantly reference-able and already inspiring new and veteran artists both musically and visually.

The Madrid-based musician has built around his debut a cryptic and personal world that seems to pull from the most enigmatic corners of the internet and its confusing virality. From “GATA” to “MÁQUINA CULONA,” each of the songs are pieces that make up the puzzle that is Ralphie Choo: fun, unpredictable, enigmatic and experimental.

Still in the throes of SUPERNOVA, Choo is preparing to celebrate the anniversary of the album, which will unleash several unexpected surprises in September. Below, PAPER chatted with the musician about navigating the music industry, working with friends and his style influences.

Ralphie, there is no doubt about the success SUPERNOVA has had, and I want to congratulate you. Now that some time has passed since the release of the album, how would you describe the experience?

I am super ultra grateful with the reception it has had, the first and second chances. Now it’s starting to feel a bit distant, maybe because of the speed at which music is consumed nowadays. And I would like the life of these projects to be at least as long as the process of creating it, although that doesn’t depend on me. Even so, I’m enormously happy and embracing the new opportunities it has given me.

Could you share a special moment from your adventures with SUPERNOVA?

I remember the first trip we made to London to work with Mura [Masa] and then to LA to meet the team. We were three kids barely aware of what was going on around us that barely knew how to speak English, and we defended ourselves as best we could. But based on pursuing the future that we had in mind, we knew how to surf it and, above all, discover the world and have a great time. We called this state “surfing squirrel.” We didn’t know very well what was going on, but we got used to the uncertainty. In this music business, there is a lot of smoke, desires and promises until you get something tangible.

You are also making your way into the U.S., and I’m curious about your perspective on the Spanish and American industries, what differences have you noticed between the two?

I’m not really that into the American market. Most of my audience is Spanish-speaking, but I do see more and more international artists recognizing the place that Spanish and Latin music deserves and the cultural diversity it has.

If you had to move to the U.S., where would you go? Is there a specific reason for choosing that city?

If I had to choose, I would say New York because of the social bustle and the confluence of cultures. I feel that it is a city that welcomes people from different places, where they nurture each other in a reciprocal way to get an opportunity —the city where you go to achieve your dreams, too romantic.

As consumers, I think we live in a moment that feels saturated, not only in music, but in entertainment in general. Every day there are new releases of songs, movies and series. As a singer, what do you think about this hyper-stimulation?

Obviously, art-related professions have democratized, and this feeling is very noticeable in music in particular. Having made a song with a beat from the internet is super common now. I don’t think it’s bad at all. Everyone is free to do what they want, and I really believe in anyone who dedicates time and love to it. On the other hand, I think songs will drift towards a shorter and shorter format that’s pleasurable, like a sniff of poppers, and a counter-response will be generated, as with everything,

I have been able to attend several of your live shows, and I want to know a little more about your way of building them. We have seen visuals of all kinds, from live shows on Zoom to appearances from Rusowsky and Tristan. How do you prepare them, and where do you get the ideas?

I really don’t know. I don’t think I have to be the one to answer that question, maybe because of the experience and the amount of sensations and emotional stages you go through. It takes you to places, takes you out of them, introduces you to characters you identify with, brings back memories. It’s like looking back at a photo to remember an era or a person. I don’t know. As for the live shows, we try to introduce elements that don’t belong to that field, resources to interact with the audience and amplify the experience and arrangements that add a point to the live song while respecting the original version

In your concerts you wear a kind of transparent mask, and your style has a lot of personality. What is the place of fashion in your projects? Do you pay attention to any specific designer? Do you have specific references?

It occupies a super important place. I’ve always been interested in fashion and aesthetics, playing with having another identity to inspire and create sensations of any kind. I have a special devotion lately for the masks and hiding the identity that lies behind. I also think that we are not something static, but a process. This is influenced in the way we express ourselves through changing the outermost layer we have. Now I’m wearing a lot of Bikkembergs and Marithé + François Girbaud.

I have to ask you about “Dolores,” the song you did with Rusowsky, which is a real anthem. It’s been several years since the release of that song. Where does its magic lie, and what relationship do you both have with that acclaimed song?

It is the first song we did together, and we’re affectionate about uniting to make it. But things change. Tastes change, and we see it with different eyes.

Since we mentioned Rusowsky, you maintain a great friendship with him, Mori and Tristan. How important is your relationship with them and how they influence your music?

Well, they have influenced me enormously. I assure you that I wouldn’t make the music I make or focus on the details I do if it weren’t for everything they have taught me. We are partners in life and in our profession, and we all get involved in each other’s projects.

Photography and direction: Pablo Mas
Creative and movement direction: Muriel Seiquer
Art direction: Marta Ochoa, Yosi Negrin
Post-production: Pablo Rivera Gento
Styling: Jon Mikel del Valle
Makeup: Hugo Trix
Makeup assistant: Laura Romojaro
Hair: Gorka Larcan
Hair assistant: Brais García Martínez
Lighting: Claudio Oca
Production: @paubelr, Xabier Fernán
Casting: Celeste Casting
Cast: Seju and Xiandong Sun via Uno Models, Layla Novas via Salvador Agency, Terese Aguado, Adassa Navarro, Sun Weihang via Zerek Studio, Marlon via Isla Management
Commissioner: PBM
Special thanks: RUSIAIDK, Manuel Jubera

“No photography was permitted” during Madonna’s surprise appearance at Ladyland 2024’s Vogue House Ball in Brooklyn. That is, unless your name was Ricardo Gomes, the Queen of Pop’s go-to photographer and all-around creative confidant.

The Portuguese director has been capturing Madonna, whom he refers to simply as “M,” for several years now — sometimes officially, like for her single artwork, magazine editorials or music videos, and other times more candidly, like at parties or backstage with all her famous friends.

Gomes just got off Madonna’s Celebration World Tour — which he worked closely on, documenting every show, directing stage videos and providing real-time feedback. “I’m kind of like her eyes in the audience,” he says, explaining his critical, but undefined role that’s difficult to attain and not for the faint of heart.

Below, PAPER caught up with Gomes to talk all things Celebration and reflect on our 2022 cover shoot that doubled as a private party with some of New York’s coolest club kids.

What’s your creative relationship with Madonna and how involved were you in the Celebration Tour production?

At this point, I oversee, give my opinion and give notes if I see something. Me and M[adonna] went to a few different types of shows before we started rehearsing [for Celebration], looking for inspiration and researching. Then we started having meetings, and it was all a conversation and an exchange of ideas. But she is the main creative of the show. It’s really her vision and what she wanted to do.

When you’d watch the show back, what elements of yourself would you see reflected?

The second act of the show, which is the ’90s, Erotica, until the end and gets kind of “Bad Girl”-ish. That’s really where my vision came to life because I directed the videos, and was very involved for the whole show on the camera work and the live video. There were a lot of people involved in this show, it’s a whole village.

It’s probably the biggest show, in terms of production, that I’ve ever been to in my life. You’re in such a unique position with Madonna because there’s a lot of trust and you’ve built a very close relationship. How did you get to that place with her?

I don’t really know, it was so organic. Everyone talks to me about it, the people that are really close to her and the people that have been working with her for so long. They respect me a lot because they’re like, “You managed to create your own position with her and no one has ever managed to do that.” People would always come and go for specific projects. I came in to help her promote her last album, create visuals and photos for press or for Instagram.

It was very hard in the beginning to direct her because she didn’t know me. I was supposed to come for three months to work with her until she started rehearsing for the previous tour and she just kept me on. I was like, “Maybe I’m gonna go home after rehearsals and I’m not going on tour,” but then I ended up going on tour. We figured out a way to keep working [through COVID], and to stay creative and communicate, and then I moved to LA with her and we just kept working.

I kept bringing her projects and ideas and introducing her to new people, and that’s how it happened. She likes to just keep going and stay connected with what’s happening in the moment. There is no one else around her that really does that to the level that she likes, bringing things the way I bring them to her. I keep it very real and very straight. Very much like, “This is cool, you should do it.” Of course, sometimes the idea changes and it becomes her idea, but at least I start something with her.

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Living in this world, I would imagine it’s difficult to be exposed to new ideas or talent all the time. How do you stay connected and inspired, while still being in Madonna’s circle touring the world?

During tour is a little hard. I managed to do other projects, at the same time, smaller projects. I don’t know how, but I managed. We’ve been on the road for so long and rehearsals started last year in February. I try to watch movies, sometimes. When I’m in different cities, I walk around. That’s what keeps me inspired. I go out, I see people and I try to have a little bit of a life outside of the touring world. I don’t just wake up at 1 PM and go to the venue. I’d rather sleep a little less, wake up earlier, and go out and then go to the show later. On the days without a show, I either work on other projects, meet people or stay active. That’s how I keep going.

What do you do during the show?

Every night, I’m on the barricades around the stage. I kind of follow her, looking at different things. I’m looking at hair, sometimes the skirt gets shortened. Sometimes this gets added, this gets removed. I report feedback. After I look at the screens, sometimes we change something on lighting. I’m just really connected to the show. I’m kind of like her eyes in the audience, if she was in the audience.

That’s probably why you and Madonna get along so well. Having worked with you both, you’re extremely particular and such perfectionists. Have you ever just enjoyed the show with a drink?

To be honest, I haven’t sat down and watched the show for fun. I’m either following the show or following M[adonna] on stage, photographing her or photographing the show details. And after the show, we go into the editing of the show. I’ve been living on this show for a while, it’s intense.

You’ve been doing more directing work. Is that what you’re interested in moving more into, music videos?

I love photography, but video is a completely different world. It’s so much more real time and I’m starting to relate to it more and more. Before working with M[adonna], I was really into photography and that’s all I wanted to do. I thought that video was not for me, but the longer I work with her I see myself more involved with video. I’m starting to look at other artists’ work and I’m like, “I wish they would have done it this way,” you know? I feel very involved.

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Obviously, you’ve done so much with Madonna. Is there like a dream project in the music space that you could see yourself working on at some point?

Working with artists is very complicated. You’re not able to do everything you want to do, that’s the problem. Of course, there are other artists I would love to work with, but I’m not dreaming about working with any other artists. If it happens, it’s great. I’m not really pushing for it to happen. I love documentaries and I love campaigns, that’s what I want to go towards. Working a little bit more in the fashion world, and outside of music and show business.

You’ll probably need time to recalibrate creatively and decide what’s next after such a busy tour.

I don’t want to take a long break, I’m fine.

What’s been the most memorable place to visit on this tour?

Middle America, I don’t understand. Some are a little bit fascinated by it. Nothing really made me feel like I had to go back there.

I’m from Minnesota–

Going to Prince’s house was fun. He would never go out and didn’t like to travel, so he would just invite people to his home like M[adonna] and her dancers. Europe is always fun, like when we went out shopping in Paris, it was cute. We walked a little bit and the car would pick us up somewhere and we’d walk somewhere else. My birthday in Cleveland was not cute, it was just a random place. We ended up going bowling, which is something that I would never do. The West Coast was fun, Vegas was crazy. It’s basically like: wake up, explore, maybe go to the show, maybe there’s an after thing, and then it’s repeat repeat, repeat. Touring with M[adonna] is very particular. She’s very dedicated to work and her family, so that’s all she does on tour: work and family. She doesn’t party, she doesn’t drink. There is no sex, drugs and rock ‘n’ roll. So I kind of live that way too, I don’t drink or do anything crazy.

Did you ever anticipate having as many crazy experiences as you’ve had since beginning this work?

No, I never get starstruck. So I never anticipate anything, I just go with it. I’m just happy to be there and I’m grateful that it happened.

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I wonder if it’s because you’ve humanized Madonna, one of the most famous and most powerful people in entertainment.

Before working with her I always respected her and her as an artist, but it wasn’t the type of music I would listen to. One time she asked me, “Did you come out to my music?” And I was like, “No,” because it’s the truth. I love her, but I was just listening to other things. When I was asked to work with her I came in as, “Let me see what this person is about, let me feel the energy in the room, let me see if I can see myself.” She allowed me to be myself and I also allowed myself to be myself, which a lot of people don’t around her because they’re afraid.

The first time I worked with her, it was very cold. And when I came back, they became more personal. They allowed me in her dressing room and I started giving my opinion: “Maybe not that t-shirt, maybe that hair.” Literally everyone that was there, like the glam team, they were looking at me like, “Who the fuck is this person that just arrived?” I was like, “If it doesn’t work out and I’m not asked to work again, it’s fine.” I’m not gonna change my personality, just because it’s Madonna, Beyoncé or Rihanna. I read the room, as well, I don’t just go in and start talking. If I’m welcomed and the artist is asking questions, and if everyone’s being afraid of answering, I will talk.

That is the worst when you’re in a room with talent and everyone’s walking on eggshells. Why does that dynamic suddenly exist, when one person walks in and everyone’s afraid?

That happens here. But I’ve been in other rooms with other people where it also happens. I’ve also felt that it’s sometimes better to stay quiet and just do my job. I’ve worked with people that I didn’t like to work with, I have worked with very sweet and warm people, and I’ve worked with very rude people where I haven’t even shared one photo online because I hated them so much. That’s how it is. To me, photography is so personal and it’s my baby. It’s what I’ve wanted to do since I was 17. I don’t give a fuck if if I go into a room and I shoot someone that’s really rude to me and I don’t want to share it. I won’t share it, even if it’s good for my career. Something else will come.

I think that’s a good way to be. You’re no bullshit, which I appreciate and I’m sure Madonna also appreciates.

I hope so, yeah.

Do you see yourself that way?

I do. Sometimes you need a little bit of bullshit, but most of the time I’m straight to the point and I will tell you what I think. And sometimes it’s a problem that I have. I might hurt people a little bit because I tell everyone what I think about in that moment. Sometimes I’m like, “Maybe I should have said something a little bit different.” But then I’m like, “No, I was being real. That’s, that’s how I feel, that’s how I think, so then we can figure it out.”

When I first met you for PAPER’s Madonna cover, I was like, “Whoa, okay I’m processing–”

I feel like you hated me for the first five minutes.

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And then I was like, “Okay, I love this.”

I always appreciate that when I work, especially with M[adonna], and a magazine that it’s so complex and specific. When I go into a project with her I already know what I’m going to go through, so I try to be very clear. I always try to say the bad things and the good things. Sometimes people are like, “Let’s look at the good side,” but I’m like, “There might not be a good side,” you know? It’s just very specific and that’s why she is who she is.

I loved our shoot. There was so much spontaneity and it basically became one big party in Brooklyn.

In the beginning, I was a bit freaked out by everything. We had so many people on set, it was actually insane. I don’t know how we made that happen. I mean, you made it happen, but I will never forget that shoot because I also met incredible people from New York, cool kids. I really saw a different side of New York and it made me curious. I knew about this side in Europe, but it was a really fun shoot, for sure. And it was one of the first times that I shot without a real shot list. We only had the locations planned and then whatever happened happened in that location, which is crazy. But it worked out.

It’s not like we pre-planned any of that, it all just happened. It was interesting to see firsthand how people light up around Madonna. She is a force, for sure.

Yeah, it was a night. A night in Brooklyn.

What impact do you think the Celebration Tour had and what would you say is its larger message?

Regarding her as a performer, I think it’s insane. I feel tired looking at her performing every night. Her energy is crazy. At her age, to still be performing the way she’s performing, there’s nobody that does that. And a lot of the new performers, the younger artists or bigger artists that are still younger, I don’t know if they would ever be able to do that. So I think that’s the main inspiration for every artist: rehearse for so long, almost die, come back to life, go on the road for so long and just be so strong mentally. That’s very inspiring.

Visually, it’s a such a minimal show, but still feels huge. It doesn’t have many props, it doesn’t have 100 chairs, it doesn’t have stairs. It’s really just a video and a stage. And for such a big pop artist to do that, everything else has to be solid. And I’m actually so happy that she allowed herself to do that. It’s way, way stronger, because it’s all about her and the dancers. And if that is not good enough, then the show wouldn’t be good.

Photography: ROSARIIO