MJ Lenderman calls in from an orange-hued hotel room in Durham, North Carolina. He’s enjoying a short break before he heads off to New York City to play The Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon. The episode is set to feature Shaquille O’Neal and Chloë Sevigny. All of this, it occurs to me, sounds as if it was ripped right out of an MJ Lenderman song. “Shaq and fucking Gummo,” he says with a smirk.
Lenderman’s noted penchant for pop culture, basketball and desolation has lent his music a distinct moodboard. His tendency to imbue roadside detritus with a sense of revelation could, under less subtle hands, read as random. Take “Wristwatch,” which he performed on Fallon. The song is partially inspired by Brendan Schaub, a former MMA fighter and famously failed comedian who doubles as a member of Joe Rogan’s online universe. “Wristwatch” is a wry contemplation on flailing and modernity, as the desolate speaker relies on an Apple Watch for semi-solace. “And I’ve got a houseboat docked at the Himbo-Dome/ And a wristwatch that tells me I’m on my own,” Lenderman sings in a voice that skirts between a sigh and a wail. Few could capture this character with such cutting precision and few could evoke a tear with a song that coins the term “Himbo-dome.”
Lenderman’s latest album, Manning Fireworks, is filled with the same symbols and details. Heartbreak rubs up against the fleeting image of Lightning McQueen from Pixar’s Cars on “Rudolph,” a song named after the downtrodden reindeer. On “Joker Lips” there’s a line that has become a much-discussed micro-poem: “Kahlúa shooter/ DUI scooter.” And on “Rip Torn,” Lenderman sings a verse that sounds at once stunning and stupid: “You said, ‘Then there’s men and Men in Black’/ You said, ‘There’s milkshakes and there’s smoothies’/ You always lose me when you talk like that.” These lines — literal, referential, often logically circular — give Lenderman’s music a comedic slant. But hidden within that comedy is a subtle philosophy. See, “‘There’s milkshakes and there’s smoothies.” … “There’s men and Men in Black.”
Lenderman’s first name is Jake and he’s 25 years old. Still, his music is spiritually connected to bards of America’s past who could capture the essence of our heart-sunk nation with little more than a voice and a guitar. But having grown up in a generation fractured by stimuli — be it via the whirl of the smartphone or a childhood soundtracked by television — Lenderman suffuses this tradition with a very modern ennui. When asked if he always had a penchant for pop culture, he mumbles, “No more than anyone else my age,” before he notes that he has three sisters and grew up in a household buzzing with TV: “Bravo, E!, Disney Channel, Nickelodeon or Sports Center,” he remembers.
In conversation, Lenderman is quiet and prone to murmurs. It’s his natural personality but also born of habit. Thus far, he’s been best known as the guitarist in Wednesday, the Asheville band who broke out via 2023’s Rat Saw God. But when 2022’s Boat Songs created a steady hum around Lenderman’s solo work, a certain corner of the internet (“dudes rock” meets music critic Twitter) came to champion the quiet guitarist, turning him into something of a cult favorite.
Today, his cult status is bordering on something more glittering, which is new for the low-key writer. When he does finally perform on Fallon, many note his doe-eyed smirk up towards O’Neal. “I want someone to look at me the way MJ Lenderman looks at Shaq,” said one X user. “I want MJ Lenderman to look at me the way MJ Lenderman looks at Shaq,” said another. For a gangly guitarist with an affinity for American gothic novels, this attention and rapturous reception may feel new and “overwhelming.” But it seems the joy of the grind is enough to offset the jitters. “Luckily, it’s working out,” he smiles.
The conversation occurred before Hurricane Helene and subsequent flooding devastated parts of Asheville, North Carolina where Lenderman is from. PAPER encourages readers to refer to the resources he has shared to support local communities affected.
Hey!
Hello!
I’m excited to chat with you. Where are you?
In this hotel room [laughs]. I just checked in. I’m in Durham right now.
That’s not too far from home [in Asheville] right?
No, not really. Well, nowhere is. I don’t really live anywhere at the moment.
Are you in the midst of crazy tour prep?
It’s not quite a tour, but it is crazy right now. I was in Nashville last week for Americana Fest, and came here for a couple of days. We ended up getting an offer to play Fallon last minute, so I’m about to do that. And then after that we go on tour.
How do you feel about Fallon? I feel like pop culture is such a presence on the album.
I won’t say them out loud [laughs], but I’m excited to play. But yeah, historically I do love late night. I love watching old Letterman interviews.
I’m a huge fan and have been for a minute. The new record really astounded me, particularly the writing. It made me wonder if you grew up as a reader or if books and writing were always a part of your life?
My interest with books has had different seasons. Sometimes I’d be into reading and then I’d go a year without reading. I got really deep into reading right before COVID. And then during COVID I really did my best to be reading something at all times. Reading is really important to the writing process.
What were you reading during the time that you were writing this record?
Richard Brautigan, Harry Crews, Larry Brown and Barry Hannah.
The record is filled with the kind of person you see when on the road or at the supermarket. Did you remember seeing someone like the character on “Wristwatch” somewhere?
I saw that character on YouTube.
Are they a Joe Rogan kind of person?
Yeah, I keep bringing up Brendan Schaub who was part of that world.
I’m not familiar. Who is that?
He was a UFC fighter that Rogan made famous and encouraged to do comedy. He released one special that people consider the worst of all time, and he immediately retired from comedy. But he still has a podcast that people listen to, but it’s really bad.
You write about culture that people wouldn’t maybe take seriously or talk about. Were you always a pop culture aficionado?
I guess so, probably not more than most people my age, but I do love TV.
What kind of TV was important for you when you were getting into culture?
I have three sisters, so depending on who was in charge of the remote I could be watching Bravo or E! all day, or Disney Channel, Nickelodeon or Sports Center.
I know you grew up in Asheville. From what I know about Asheville, it has a hippie, bluegrassy ethos. Did you identify with the scene in high school? Or were you predisposed to reject what was immediately in front of you?
Yeah, I think I was rejecting the busking/bluegrass/jam band side of things. And then once I got to high school and started going out to smaller shows, I started learning about other types of music and people like Tashi Dorji. He lives in Asheville, and he’s a really great guitar player. So I got to see a lot of cool free improv music.
Did you have a sense that a career in music was possible? Did you see the path?
Yeah, I didn’t really consider doing anything else or give myself a plan B. Luckily it’s starting to work, but I didn’t really ever consider doing anything else.
Have you been enjoying the craziness of it? I can imagine it’s quite overwhelming. Are you able to feel gratified, or does it just feel hectic?
It’s definitely both. Everything is at 100% right now, so I’m very overwhelmed and anxious. But I also have good days where it’s really exciting.
Does your life still feel normal when you’re in North Carolina?
To a degree, but I haven’t lived anywhere for probably four months now, so that’s a base layer and that’s pretty weird.
Are you always writing music?
Yeah, I jot down things on my phone and then I play guitar pretty much every day.
What kind of things do you jot down on your phone? Would you jot down “Kahlua shooter/ DUI scooter”?
Exactly, stuff like that.
How does that stuff come to you? Does it come to you as images or just words?
It might even be smaller than that. Like the DUI scooter was an idea I had for a long time, just the idea of somebody on a moped on the highway. It’s something that tells you a lot about what’s going on in their life.
You were a huge Eminem fan when you were young, right?
5th and 6th grade.That was my guy.
That just reminded me of how Eminem speaks about waking up and rhymes just coming to him.
Yeah, I was interested in rhyming a lot more on this album.
Do you attribute that to anything?
It could be Eminem.
I also know that you grew up Catholic, right? In an interview, you said you once wanted to be a priest? I didn’t know how serious that was.
It’s as serious as an 8-year-old can be, right? At the time it just seemed like that would make sense.
I think of Catholicism, and I think of redemption. There are these characters in your songs that are flailing and redeeming themselves.
I don’t know if they’re redeeming themselves, but I think there’s maybe a certain level of empathy or mercy.
Yeah, you have mercy upon them.
Those are big ideas that stick. I don’t disagree with them at all.
Well, it’s mercy on one hand, but then sin and hellfire on the other hand, right?
Yeah, the other side is the idea that you’re gonna be in trouble if you do something.
Was that the kind of environment you grew up in? Was it a Catholic environment where trouble or fear loomed?
Yeah, definitely. I feel a certain level of shame that most Catholics do. I always have to remind myself, “I’m not in trouble. I’ve not done anything to get me in trouble.” That stuff lingers.
Do you have a relationship with those ideas now in your music?
The ones that I do are just big words like “love” and “empathy.” I try to keep that in me.
I was reading another interview and you were going back and forth about if you’re an optimist or a pessimist. The music often depicts people who are flailing, but it’s so empathetic that it feels quite optimistic.
I would agree with that. There’s usually a path out for people who are doing bad things. I’d like to believe that at least.
Maybe every person is redeemable, but society isn’t necessarily redeemable?
Yeah, I feel less optimistic about the structures we have in place in America. I’m worried and feel a lot of dread as time goes on about the way the country is built. But I believe people are born good and their circumstances shape who they are in a big way.
What about basketball in particular inspires you?
It’s something that has been with me my whole life, and it’s pretty musical, too. There’s a lot of improv and quick thinking and stuff that really blows my mind. There’s all the motions and shooting. There’s a lot of rhythm and fluidity required to make it work.
You’re going on tour as MJ Lenderman and not as part of Wednesday. Does that feel like a really different experience?
Yeah, to a degree. Being the face of the band and singing requires a different level of energy. Still, I’m part of a group of people that are traveling together, and we’re going through all these things together. This late night experience is a first for us. I did Colbert with Waxahachie, but this will be my first time doing it as my band. It’s cool we get to experience those kinds of things together.
Photography: Graham Tolbert
